‘The L Word’ at 20: A Conversation with Leisha Hailey and Jenna Lyons

Andie Eisen: Leisha, I was reading some of your old interviews, and I read that you had quite an affirming family around you, even though Nebraska was a pretty homophobic place to grow up. In a pre-social media, pre-internet era, what was available to you in terms of representation?

Leisha Hailey: My mother’s best friend was a lesbian, or is. Her name’s Maureen. She looked like your average butch lesbian. Maureen would have rotating girlfriends, but I didn’t really understand what it meant at the time. I was about eight or nine, and Kathy would be around for a couple of years and then disappear. I’m like, “Where’d Kathy go?” Then LaDonna would be in my life all of a sudden. I started doing musical theater in fifth grade and the theater director, Jay Warden, was another best friend of my mother’s. He had a partner, Tim, and they are still together about 50 years later.

AE: That’s so sweet.

LH: I had these two older gay people in my life that my parents adored, but I realized later that I watched them hide. Maureen had a spare bedroom in her house, so whoever she was with seemed like a roommate. Mr. Warden couldn’t come out at the high school because he’d get fired.

Jenna Lyons: Did that make you associate being gay or out with shame and fear?

LH: Yes. And I didn’t realize it until I was in New York. I was like, “Why did I have such a hard time coming out to my family?” The whole community and my family just didn’t talk about it. You didn’t say the word. My family was accepting, but nothing around me was celebrating being gay.

JL: This is something that I experienced, and I’ve been asked this question a lot. Because I only saw people who looked a very specific way that were gay—butch lesbians, women who were more masculine—I didn’t have any connection to that. I didn’t see myself in that. I wanted to wear sequins, heels, and lipstick so I didn’t connect myself or whatever feelings I might have had. When was the first time you actually started to connect yourself to something you saw?

LH: I had the exact same experience as you. The feelings were the thing that made me realize I was gay, but I never saw anyone that looked like me. I didn’t look at Maureen and say, “That’s me.” The L Word was one of the things that helped me break my own stereotype.

JL: How did it change for you?

LH: Moving to New York was my first experience, I used to play with my image. I had 10-inch platform boots and pink hair. I kind of looked like a club kid. I would just take my freakier side and put it on the outside. That’s how I would express myself. To me, that was gay because it was all about the East Village, drag queens, Wigstock—we were this community of underground weirdos, and we’ve all clung together.

AE: I remember you were about 17 when you came to New York, and you found yourself in places like the Cubbyhole. How did you start to unlearn the Nebraska shame?

LH: It was really easy to shake Nebraska. The second I stood on the cement in New York, I was like, “Goodbye!” Really my first intro was all the drag queens down at the Pyramid Club.

JL: Same.

LH: Really?

JL: Mm-hmm. What year did you move here?

LH: ‘89.

JL: ‘87. I was at Pyramid, watching all kinds of shows, like Lydia Lunch. But that’s where I started to see the scene too. We were probably there at the same time.

LH: Back then, I was in acting school and everyone would whisper that I was gay. All my friends from back then are gay now also, but they weren’t out yet. So I had my oversized jeans and vintage T-shirts, and I’d leave school and sneak down to the Cubbyhole at like 5:00 p.m., and all the bridge and tunnel dykes would come over. I’d sit at the bar—I had my sister’s ID because we kind of looked the same—I’d start sending beers to people.

JL: You were flirting and trying to pick people up?

LH: I never had any luck. I must have looked like a child.

JL: Well, I mean, you kind of still do. Every time I look at you, I’m like, “What?”

AE: When I went to New York with my first girlfriend in college, we went right to the Cubbyhole. We were both in our first gay relationship, so when we got there, we were like, “We did it. We made it.”

JL: I remember when I first came out. I was 43, and I’d never been to a female gay bar, only male gay bars. The only ones that existed in the city at the time were Henrietta Hudson and Cubbyhole. I remember going to the Cubbyhole, and it was so overwhelming, I’d never been surrounded by women in that way, which leads me to a question I wanted to ask you. I am on the second season of the show [The Real Housewives of New York], and there is a new person in the cast who is actually gay and a similar age to me, and it has changed my experience by like 180 degrees. I didn’t realize how alone I felt in the process because there is this understanding that they have been through the same things and know what you do sexually—all of that. I was curious because not everyone on your show [The L Word] was actually gay. I was wondering how that felt for you—was it strange?

LH: At the time, It was so exciting to be on the show. Kate [Moennig], who plays Shane, was gay but she wasn’t out publicly, but I knew she was in that first season. I didn’t feel alone because all the women in charge were gay, like Ilene [Chaiken], Rose Troche, and all the producers. There was a lot of focus on me in the cast because I was the only out one. It was a constant question in every interview like, “What’s it like to be the only out one?” and they would try to get me to spill that Kate was gay, and I was never going to do it. It was really awful how the press was back then.

AE: And you got outed on a radio program, right? With your band?

LH: Yeah, that was years earlier. That guy, Riki Rachtman, some cheesy heavy metal guy was like, “Come on. You like girls, right?” He put a lot of pressure on us, and our label freaked out afterward.

JL: Did they?

LH: Yeah, they weren’t into it. The way he did it was gross. [From then on,] we just became “the lesbian band.” It really stamped it.

AE: They were always trying to bait people back then. That’s what happened with Sleater-Kinney. They got outed in Spin.

JL: The things that were okay in interviews back then are just completely unbelievable in retrospect. So incredibly invasive and inappropriate. Obviously, far more with women than men.

LH: You had a terrible time with that, didn’t you?

JL: I did. What was so shocking was that I wasn’t asked publicly. Somebody literally called the paper and decided that they wanted to share that information. Why, I don’t know. Some people freaked out, and it was interesting that your label freaked out because people have all these assumptions about what’s going to happen [when you come out], and a lot of it didn’t happen. Did you feel any backlash when it happened, other than your label?

LH: No. We were on somewhat of a climb and guys would come see us play, and then it shifted a little bit. I think that’s just what my path is. It’s good to be yourself and then it all just kind of falls into place.

JL: When you went to your first premiere party [for The L Word], what was the level of acceptance or excitement around the show?

LH: The whole thing was a lot bigger than I ever realized when I got the part. The only reference I had about any gay movie or TV was like these tiny art house movies.

AE: Like Go Fish?

LH: Yes, like Go Fish or Desert Hearts. You’d sit there and you couldn’t believe there was going to be a sex scene. I thought [The L Word] was going to be an under-the-radar television show that no one was going to hear about. Then our first premiere was giant, all the press came, there was a carpet, I think it was at LACMA. That was the first time I realized this was going to be a lot bigger than I anticipated.

All the girls on the show took it so seriously. Everyone wanted to get it right. We even had a lesbian sex expert come in and sit around the table where we had our read-throughs. She had dildos across the table and strap-ons, we had this four-hour class on lesbian sex. Everyone would raise their hand and ask questions and they’d always turn to me and be like, “Is that true?” I’d be like, “That’s pretty true, yeah.”

AE: So the cast went to gay school? I heard that the Wachowskis did that for the movie Bound. They brought in a lesbian sex expert to direct the sex scenes.

LH: Maybe it was the same woman!

JL: That’s incredible. I wish I had that when I came out. There should be something like that for young gay women. With gay men, there’s such a huge network and tons of porn.

AE: In movies, lesbians are always grazing each other’s hands and crying, then it just cuts to bedsheets, and I’m like, “That’s it? What just happened?”

LH: Nobody wanted the sex to be gratuitous, but we also didn’t want any of that tickling, sad-sack shit. But, there is a joke that everyone comes too fast on The L Word, which is so true. Shane would make someone come in like 15 seconds, but at least it was the first time you saw some realistic lesbian sex. It just had never been on TV.

AE: Was there anything that you guys fought for on the show that didn’t make it? Were there things that the producers thought, “TV’s not ready for this yet”?

LH: Back then, we were just the cast, we weren’t let inside those important rooms. I just know that whenever something was in the script everyone—even the male directors—really wanted to do a good job and represent the community as best as possible. Looking back there were a lot of mistakes, but that’s just where we were at the time.

JL: Did you have any agency over your outfits on the show?

LH: First of all, Kate and I both tested for Shane. That’s how we first met. It was just the two of us against each other for the part. I met her in the lobby and was like, “Well, it’s obviously her. I’m not that cool.” My hair was a little messy and I wore really bright clothes, and she was in black and cool. I didn’t get the part, but they called me a week after and had me come back to read for Alice. I was dressed the same, but Rose Troche had me run home and change. She said, “You need to just wear all black. Quit with the bright clothes.”

AE: For Alice? But that was totally her style.

LH: That’s how she ended up dressing, which is crazy. There was a stereotype with each character, and I was the quirky, bright-colored friend, but we had a different costume designer in the pilot than we did in the series. Cynthia [Summers] was our costume designer and I really give her so much credit. I know the clothes get a lot of flak but some of it was cutting edge for the time.

AE: Honestly, some of it was really cunty. You have this Courrèges jacket.

LH: Thank you for noticing that.

JL: Cunty is a good word now.

LH: After the first season, Sex and the City was leaving the airwaves and they sunk a lot of money into our budget. By the second season, Cynthia would fly down to LA and we each got to have a shopping day with her where she had the corporate credit card and we would go wherever we wanted. It was so much fun. She was like “We’re going to Marni,” and I can’t even imagine how much money it was.

JL: This is making me so happy. I can’t believe you got to shop retail for your outfits at Marni.

AE: As you were playing Alice, did you as a person and her as a character start to influence one another as the seasons went on? Alice started as a bubbly bisexual then we went a little crazy about Dana with the cardboard cutout and then there was a shift where she became really grounded and real. She was my favorite for many seasons because she felt like a real person. Did the writers start to pick up on who you were and write that into the character?

LH: Yes. I think it was a blessing we were stuck in Vancouver together because we only had each other socially. We were all away from home, and a lot of us lived together. We would all leave set and go eat together and work out together. We were just like this massive bubble, and all the writers were doing the same thing. It just started to morph, everything you see on screen. So if we had a big party or something, they would write it into the show like that whole pot brownie party

AE: That’s a fantastic scene.

LH: Or even social dynamics between some of us started to bleed into the characters and I think that was really the secret to the show.

JL: It’s funny you say that because I didn’t watch it when it first came out, I watched it later. Because you’re able to binge it now, there’s an intimacy that grows and it’s very visible. Hearing you say that makes total sense because you really see there’s a tenderness between you guys. It feels like you truly are friends.

LH: Yeah, we really were. There were always adults in the room. Jennifer was always the adult. She was our star, you know?

JL: She was in Flashdance. I would have been so freaked out. I would not have been able to talk.

LH: When we first got up there for the pilot, we were all making bets who had to call her to see if she wanted to hang out because we were all too scared to call her. She was always hurt because we never invited her. But Laurel, who played Tina, had a husband and a baby. The rest of us were just like kids.

AE: You were at the kids’ table. I feel like Alice was always the comedic character on the show. Was that influenced by you?

LH: I was so happy to be that. That’s my wheelhouse. You could tell by whoever wrote the script who had your character’s voice or someone else’s. You always knew which writer could write you the best. Rose Troche always wrote Alice really well, she’s such a witty person. If they locked into a character, you’d have a better script.

JL: Obviously people started to recognize you on the street. Who was coming up to you the most, and who was connecting with the show?

LH: I mean, definitely girls. There was a point where we couldn’t go to gay bars anymore, which is kind of a drag because your social life gets taken away a bit. But straight couples, that was the shocker to me. They would come up and say, “We love your show.” It was always, “we watch it,” and I’m just looking at them like, “What? Why are you watching the show?”

AE: Whoa. Allies.

LH: I was thinking, “I feel like this isn’t going to end well.”

JL: I’m shocked by that, but obviously it would have to be cross-demographic because it’s not like there are that many openly gay people in the United States. It’s interesting that [the show] became so accepted and popular and yet being gay is still so controversial.

LH: I know. And straight girls—that was another thing. They were like, “All my friends get together and watch it. We just love your friendships.”

AE: When the original show wrapped, did you expect another show to take the sapphic torch? After a couple of years, were y’all like, “What’s going on?”

LH: I’m telling you, I’m still shocked about it. I still can’t believe something hasn’t taken its place. Orange is the New Black was the only thing that sort of got close but it still wasn’t a gay-centric show. It was a prison series with gay characters. And I love that show. But we would wait and wait. Kate and I would call each other like, “Oh my god. Still nothing.” So we would call Ilene once in a while and say, “Should you bring the show back?” Like, “Oh, that’s crazy, we can’t. Showtime would never do it.”

JL: Why do you think they would never do it?

LH: Back then, cable had a six-season run. It was just sort of this thing. Now things go on and on. She called five years later, and Gary Levine said, “It’s not going to work.” And then Jennifer, Kate, Ilene, and I started talking about it again around 2016 and Ilene reached out one more time.

JL: It’s funny, the only representation of gay women that I saw on TV was Ellen DeGeneres and Rachel Maddow. I didn’t know anyone gay growing up. Not a single person. Leisha, you were so young.

LH: You didn’t have any gay people around you?

JL: I grew up in a really small town outside of LA in a very classic neighborhood. I didn’t meet anyone gay until I moved to New York when I was 18. That’s why I think things like The L Word are so important. The people who reach out to me most or DM me are the parents. Oftentimes they say, “I was so afraid that my child wouldn’t be loved or accepted and wouldn’t find a job, but seeing someone who’s successful and out that looks just like everybody else is really comforting and makes me feel less scared.” Oftentimes it’s this fear that makes people reject someone. It’s amazing to me that there isn’t anything, to your point, to replace [The L Word] because it gives people a sense of belonging which is so important.

LH: The moment you see yourself reflected back, it’s just life-altering. I’ve always wondered this: when you were doing fashion, were you making clothes for gay people? Because I have to tell you, I have never felt more seen than when you were in charge. I looked you up because I was like, “Who understands me finally that I can walk into this store and buy things that feel like me?” And it was you. I didn’t have to walk through the store to figure out like, “Should I go to the boys section?” You married everything.

JL: That makes me so happy to hear that. I always wanted the mix of something boyish and something girlish. I never wanted head-to-toe “girl,” and maybe it felt welcoming because there always was something that was pushing it off. And that was not because I was trying to appeal to the gay people, it was just because that was what I had always liked. Tulle with a pinstripe suit or something. You know what I mean? That push and pull.

LH: When I first discovered Madewell I thought my life just changed in a flash. As much as you can find representation in media, fashion is the same thing. To have people like you at the helm is so important. In TV as well.

AE: What is your biggest pet peeve about sapphic representation in film and television? For me, it’s the crying-to-sex ratio. If it’s 50-50, I’m a little upset. Sometimes there’s even more crying. What is something that always stands out to you?

LH: Coming-out stories. I just want to watch gay people in their lives in a comedy or a drama where it’s not limited to this one experience they have to go through. Let’s just get past the coming out and find out who they are as a person.

AE: With Gen Q, since nothing had taken The L Word’s place, did you guys feel this pressure to be representing everything to everyone? What did that feel like?

LH: When we first rebooted the show, I didn’t feel pressure to get everything right that was wrong. I was like, “This is going to be the sexiest, most dramatic, funny…” I just couldn’t wait to make the best show ever. What it ended up being was a totally different vision than I had so I can’t really speak to the pressure that the showrunner had.

AE: What would have been in your reboot for Alice? Where did you see her in the sequel before the new series was locked in?

LH: I was very lucky this time around because we had producer credits. We didn’t have a lot of say on the show in general, but we did have a lot to say about our own characters. I knew, hands down, I wanted to be a talk show host.

JL: You crushed it as a talk show host. I loved that.

LH: That could be a whole show on its own, almost like watching behind the scenes of the Ellen show. But it’s obviously an ensemble show, and we all have our allotted time. In my love life, I was just excited to date. When the throuple was pitched to me, I thought it was amazing. I wanted that relationship to last the entire series. I didn’t want it to break up the way it did. I wanted to go to parent-teacher conferences. Then Alice was famous so I wanted the throuple to be dealing with the red carpet.

AE: I feel like throuples are the next generation of getting into competitive preschools with gay parents. Having three parents is going to give their kid some cred.

JL: Please please please.

AE: I have some silly gay questions as we’re wrapping up. In But I’m A Cheerleader terms, who or what is your root?

LH: Your root is what caused it all, right? I’m going to have to say Rocky Horror Picture Show. That was a big one.

AE: Any character in particular? Or just the whole thing?

LH: Frank-N-Furter for some reason, that broke my brain open.

AE: I’ve always wanted to be Riff Raff for Halloween, but it hasn’t happened.

LH: You still have a chance. What was yours, Jenna?

JL: Black Swan.

AE: The scene with the back tattoo?

JL: When the two of them started making out, I was like, “What?” I remember feelings that I had not felt before, and I was definitely like, “Something is happening.” The whole dynamic between the two of them was just so intense. There was also a sadness to it, too.

AE: If you could curate a lesbian double feature, what would be the two movies?

LH: I have to go classic, so I’d pick Desert Hearts—I’ll never forget watching that sex scene—and Bound.

AE: My therapist gave me a DVD of Bound because she had an extra one. When I came out to my mom, she asked, “Did your therapist do this to you?” and I was like, “Didn’t hurt, honestly.”

LH: Jenna, if you had a double feature, would you put Black Swan in there?

JL: Black Swan and Entre Nous. Did you see that movie?

LH: I haven’t.

JL: It’s a French movie. There was this sort of gentle, quiet love affair between these two women, but very unspoken. They were also speaking in French the whole time so that didn’t hurt. Isabelle Huppert is amazing, that’s how I found out about her as an actress.

AE: I love Isabelle Huppert. She’s definitely in that category of actors that are lesbian icons but straight, like Cate Blanchett.

JL: Cate Blanchett. What is she doing? Why is she not on our team?

LH: I know, what a dream boat.

JL: Wait I have an idea. Why don’t you join the housewivey thing in New York? That would make three of us, we can take over the whole show.

LH: Sign me up.

AE: I feel like I’m watching history being made. The lesbian mutiny of RHONY. Please make it happen.

JL: Can you imagine? It would be so fun.

LH: The gay spinoff.